Sam: Welcome to Curmudgeon's Corner for Saturday, June 29th, 2024.
Sam: It is just after 2.30 UTC. I'm Sam Mentory. Von Bo is here.
Sam: And yeah, it's another week.
Ivan: Yeah, we're here. It's another week.
Sam: It's another week.
Ivan: We are going to talk about the Copa America tournament that is going on right now.
Sam: Uh-huh.
Ivan: How the U.S. was embarrassed by Panama yesterday.
Sam: I know lots about this.
Ivan: I'm sure that you're all, I know, I'm sure that you've been following this very closely.
Sam: Very, very. I've been obsessively following every detail I could possibly find on that.
Ivan: Of course. Yes.
Sam: Now we're, we're going to do our butt first with casual stuff,
Sam: and then we're going to do a couple of segments of newsy things.
Sam: And I get, I bet you guys can guess what we're going to talk about.
Sam: At least some of the things.
Ivan: Uh the weather yes.
Sam: The weather it's been hot.
Ivan: It's been hot a lot of places not.
Sam: Here here it's been fine where i am in the pacific northwest.
Ivan: I you know this last it it got we had a spell where it was today was it was
Ivan: like 10 degrees above normal above averages it's gotten closer to the averages
Ivan: It's still above average,
Ivan: but it's gotten closer to the averages, but, but we, we definitely have been a spell.
Ivan: I did have somebody that recently moved to the U S that was,
Ivan: I saw today and they were telling me that they went to, uh, DC last week and
Ivan: DC was in the middle of, of,
Ivan: you know, this heat wave we've had.
Ivan: And I don't, my experience with DC heat, DC gets really humid,
Ivan: far more humid than, wow.
Ivan: I mean, I mean, I come from a place that's hot and humid.
Ivan: And when I went to DC in the summer and it got hot and humid like that,
Ivan: I felt it was so much worse than, than any of the heat that I usually experienced in Puerto Rico.
Ivan: I don't know why that is, but that was the way I, I experienced it.
Ivan: And yeah, these guys, you know, they, they went there and they were like,
Ivan: whoa, no, they had moved in. They, they moved to the U S from Chile.
Ivan: Okay. Uh, relatively recently.
Ivan: So, you know, they, that was like, just, you know, that's one of the things
Ivan: they actually, it's an interesting thing when you, you meet somebody that just
Ivan: recently moved from another country.
Ivan: As i think they they told me that they
Ivan: had visited like new york before and i think
Ivan: they had visited dc but never to philadelphia never to boston never to that
Ivan: area you know so they they they really you know hadn't visited so they decided
Ivan: to to to you know just to visit the country right i mean you moved here to the
Ivan: u.s and they just wanted to go and like visit the of places.
Ivan: And so that was one of the things that they did recently. And,
Ivan: you know, they went to their first time to Boston Philadelphia.
Ivan: It's sad that they had a really great time.
Ivan: So, you know, doing, they did do, I guess it was pretty smart.
Ivan: They did a road trip where they took a rental car, they drove all the way up
Ivan: there, but they had airline tickets to return.
Ivan: So they, they, they flew back from the road trip. So that was, that was interesting.
Ivan: So anyway, that's our weather segment for today and travel that.
Sam: That was that was very exciting I kind of tuned out I must admit I was looking at other things.
Ivan: Oh it's not that thrilling it's it's not it's not thrilling you know and travel no no you're not yeah.
Sam: So so given that yes what's the what's your real but first.
Ivan: I went to the I went well not that we have I don't have an office anymore here,
Ivan: but I kind of, one of the reasons I saw that person is because I kind of like went to the office.
Ivan: Well, we had, we had a, like an all hands meeting for our region.
Ivan: And so they went and over here, we don't have an office anymore.
Ivan: So they, they got us a conference space at one of these coworking places.
Ivan: And so I spent the whole day, I had to drive to the, to the, to downtown.
Sam: Oh no.
Ivan: And meet with all these.
Sam: Oh no, I feel so awful for you. Oh, it's, it's, I, you know,
Sam: it's, it's a horrible, horrible fate that you have had.
Sam: And I can't possibly imagine anything so bad.
Ivan: So. And I spent the whole day there.
Ivan: And I got back like, oh, gosh, I don't know, close to seven, like around seven.
Ivan: I'm going to tell you, that's it. It's tiring. I actually wound up taking a nap when I got home.
Ivan: That's how tired I was from this whole thing.
Sam: Yeah.
Ivan: I mean.
Sam: I feel you. I like, look, I, I am forced to go into the office three days a week.
Sam: Most of the time it's pointless unless there's something specific I'm going in for.
Sam: And, uh, it's annoying. It's, it's just annoying.
Sam: Like, and, and look again, I have no issues whatsoever.
Sam: When there's actually somebody there to like i'm gonna have a meeting i'm gonna
Sam: have a conversation i'm gonna do some whiteboarding i'm having lunch with somebody
Sam: whatever those are all fine it's the going in and sitting in an empty office
Sam: after having to do the commute like for well.
Ivan: I did meet well i well that was the thing that that's the positive i mean i did meet with people.
Sam: Yeah yeah Yeah.
Ivan: We did have something that we were discussing. One of the things is that because
Ivan: we're doing the all hands,
Ivan: I did prove to be a little bit of a guinea pig for the slides in the in the
Ivan: all hands because, you know, trying to make sure that whatever was on there,
Ivan: the content made sense, made sense.
Ivan: Yeah, because they had been working on it. Right. You know, like our senior
Ivan: VP and and his staff, you know, they go to one slide.
Ivan: OK, well, you read this. This makes sense.
Ivan: I went through it. It actually did. I mean, I actually went through all the bullet points.
Ivan: And I think there may have been one that I didn't know what,
Ivan: you know, I was a little bit fuzzy on some of the stuffs. Okay.
Ivan: On some of the stuffs. Stuff.
Sam: The stuffs. The stuff. The stuff.
Ivan: I think, you know, because there's certain things that maybe some new stuff
Ivan: that we're talking about, like one thing that we were talking about that we
Ivan: talked about, heaven forbid, is AI, of course.
Sam: Oh, of course. Of course. You can't have a meeting without talking about that.
Ivan: No, apparently not anymore. I can't even escape it now.
Ivan: So the one thing is that I know that we have been, you know,
Ivan: a couple of things that we talk about sometimes is not just the capacity of
Ivan: AI, but AI services and how to make AI practical.
Ivan: So, uh, there was a good discussion around that, about, I think the things that
Ivan: we have complained about and how to make sure that we, we can enable people
Ivan: to be able to get value out of it.
Sam: Yeah. Use it where it makes sense, not where it's stupid.
Ivan: Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and actually we had the discussion about it and,
Ivan: and by the way, I, one thing that our discussions on that proved to be very helpful.
Sam: Oh, good. Good.
Ivan: Related to that. Yes, that was good because I was able to provide some real
Ivan: feedback related to that.
Ivan: So that was received positively. So that's good.
Ivan: I didn't mention that we had a discussion around that.
Ivan: But the one thing, we did have a discussion about working from home in the office
Ivan: and the fact that we were all together. I did bring that up.
Ivan: Well, I think the one thing I brought it up was because we haven't had,
Ivan: Like, we've onboarded a lot of new people.
Sam: Okay.
Ivan: And what I did bring up was very, you know, I took the opportunity to bring up specifically,
Ivan: you know, the issue with sometimes, look, I get, you know, I know that many
Ivan: times I don't find it productive to go to the office like you mentioned.
Ivan: So I brought up specifically.
Sam: But it's helpful for new people who are trying to figure out what's going on.
Ivan: Right. And I was like, look, we need to figure out something with this.
Ivan: And we also, I think one of the things that, I don't know how it's handled at your place of work,
Ivan: and I know that this is inconsistent across different places,
Ivan: but I mean, we're in a company,
Ivan: I mean, at least us specifically.
Ivan: I think many companies aren't in this situation, but where the product and the
Ivan: portfolio are evolving very quickly.
Ivan: And when that is happening, getting people up to speed on understanding what
Ivan: the changes are and what's going into how to position those,
Ivan: it's difficult if you don't have some kind of...
Ivan: In classroom training or, or, or at least be with people and that it's not that it isn't virtual.
Ivan: I, I, I just, I think a lot of people tune into these webinars and most of them tune them out.
Sam: It's very easy to turn. Well, it also depends a lot on the quality and blah,
Sam: blah, blah, but it's very easy to tune out those things.
Sam: Like, like if, if you're stuck in a classroom room and there are people all
Sam: around you, it's kind of, you know, if you goof off, people will notice.
Ivan: Goof off, people will notice and you're more bound to wind up focusing on what the hell is going on.
Sam: Yeah. If you're watching something, especially like it's, and what you're talking
Sam: about in terms of like instruction is different than a meeting.
Sam: Like in a meeting, you're talking back and forth and you're participating.
Sam: And if you're not participating, you probably don't need to be at the meeting anyway.
Sam: And so, but, but like with a thing that is,
Sam: it's like either somebody talking at you or you going through slides or whatever,
Sam: it's just really easy to be like, okay, well, this is interesting,
Sam: but I'm going to check my phone real quick. And you're right.
Sam: I'll, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll like, you know, I'll have it on my headphones,
Sam: but maybe Maybe I'll like go do the dishes. I don't know.
Sam: Like, yeah, it's very easy to like decide that the right thing to do is to multitask.
Sam: And, you know, I know some people are better at this than others,
Sam: but personally, like if I start doing something else that is even slightly more engaging,
Sam: I can go minutes and then suddenly realize, oh crap, I should have been paying
Sam: attention to that thing.
Ivan: Yeah. What the hell was going on? Right.
Sam: Yeah.
Ivan: And so I, I, I guess that's the thing. I think that I'm going to say like 20 years ago,
Ivan: it was a common practice that we would get taken to a training that was developed
Ivan: in conjunction with actual people that design training,
Ivan: not just, hey, you're the SME on something. Make up some slides. No.
Ivan: Right. This was a training that was, you know, designed by people that,
Ivan: you know, together with the SMEs, it's meant for to to teach.
Ivan: And also, a lot of the times there were practical exercises and testing.
Ivan: Interesting i mean just to see how much you learned and because that also helped
Ivan: to like identify okay what what was absorbed what wasn't and so forth and so
Ivan: on and i don't think we i don't think,
Ivan: Companies do enough of that anymore. And that, that used to be quite a lot more common.
Sam: I remember like when I was, when I was at Merrill Lynch and even in my early
Sam: years here, I think I was sent to a couple of courses. It's been forever.
Sam: Like, not that, not that like I actually want one, but, but it has been a long
Sam: time. It used to be something that.
Ivan: But if there is something that you want to really have people learn, that's the way to do it.
Sam: Well, yeah. I mean, and you're even talking about like real courses on something that. Oh, yeah.
Sam: But like, it's even worse when it's the stupid little mandatory training about
Sam: harassment or bribery or whatever.
Sam: Like, those are just so dumb.
Ivan: But well those everybody has to do every year but but i but you know what we
Ivan: did talk about that one but but again you know what they may be dumb but look
Ivan: that shit happens still all the time.
Sam: They guarantee that everybody has seen it so if you do the things you're not
Sam: supposed to you can't You can't plead ignorance.
Ivan: You don't have the fucking excuse exactly that you were not told and trained
Ivan: that this is wrong. Yeah.
Sam: I thought it was just fine. Like, you know, they only gave me a car.
Ivan: Somebody was mentioning today how in some years past.
Ivan: Yeah, because in the industries, and I've lived this, where you've got a company
Ivan: with a product or service that's sold through a third party.
Ivan: Man, those, especially that deals with government, man, those are wide open for abuse, okay?
Ivan: You know, I think I probably mentioned that somebody that was our senior VP 20 years ago,
Ivan: while he was working at another company, wound up going to jail on an FCPA investigation
Ivan: sometime like, yes, this must have been about. Eight or nine years ago.
Sam: Okay.
Ivan: And, you know, this is something that is notorious.
Ivan: And I know that I had somebody, somebody was mentioning today how I was talking
Ivan: about that there was a series of people that I had heard had been terminated
Ivan: some place or whatever, whatnot, that we knew.
Ivan: And they mentioned to me that look
Ivan: I've been through training I know what the hell is right
Ivan: and wrong about this stuff and that
Ivan: some years ago like a long time ago had to go to one person and they were on
Ivan: a call they heard these people talk about stuff they didn't specify what they
Ivan: said but he hung up the call and
Ivan: called them called one of them I think reported and said listen Listen,
Ivan: I don't know what the hell's going on with you guys,
Ivan: but everything I just heard on that call is inappropriate.
Ivan: And you guys were casually talking about it like it's no problem.
Sam: That's lovely.
Ivan: Yeah, I know. Yeah. And, you know, you said is that, you know,
Ivan: taking this training, you know, over and over as at least Adam in his mind reminded
Ivan: him that what the fuck it is that you're supposed to be looking for,
Ivan: whether it's related to harassment,
Ivan: whether it's related to inappropriate practices related to third parties,
Ivan: customers and so forth and so on.
Ivan: You know, I wound up having to terminate people for this shit.
Ivan: And, you know, people will play dumb. People will say they didn't do anything.
Ivan: It's not good. It's just, you know, it's not good.
Ivan: So anyway, but I will say that despite the exhausting part of that,
Ivan: I did have a good time going in and being with people.
Sam: Yeah.
Ivan: I was tired at the end of the day.
Sam: It could be good, like, sometimes.
Ivan: Sometimes yeah you know sometimes yeah well i'm not having i'm not gonna have
Ivan: to do it again like next week well so there you go that's.
Sam: Good i guess.
Ivan: Okay is.
Sam: It my turn.
Ivan: Yes it's your turn okay so you're covering a movie no.
Sam: Normally i would.
Ivan: Cover a.
Sam: Movie but i i need to give like an update.
Sam: I took this week off to work on election graphs.
Ivan: Ah, yeah.
Sam: And so I'm adding the various things that show,
Sam: probabilities that take into account the amount of time left before the election
Sam: as opposed to just if the election was today all the time.
Ivan: Okay.
Sam: And Monday and Tuesday we're all dealing with the data like getting all my old data from 2008 and 2012,
Sam: getting it into right formats making sure all my calculations were right,
Sam: adjusting doing all the math stuff and I finally, I came out of all that and
Sam: there was one thing that really annoyed me, I found,
Sam: error in my spreadsheet from 2012.
Sam: Okay. And apparently back in 2012, I had all, I had found it.
Sam: Cause like I looked at my 2012 post-mortem and it included the correct number,
Sam: but like in my spreadsheet was a wrong number.
Sam: And that wrong number had been propagated through the stuff I'd done since then.
Sam: And so I found it, I corrected it, but the curves that come out of the process
Sam: looked better with the error than with the real data, which was kind of annoying.
Sam: But, you know, and it took me like, I spent like an hour or two convincing myself,
Sam: that it really had been an error before and the new numbers were better than
Sam: the old numbers and I should go with the new numbers, not the old ones.
Sam: Anyway, that was Monday and Tuesday.
Sam: By the end of Tuesday, I'd gotten all that done.
Sam: Wednesday I made the
Sam: I don't even know what day it is like I'm getting
Sam: confused Wednesday I did the state detail pages and added this functionality
Sam: and it worked really well and by the end of the day I launched it I put out
Sam: a toot on Mastodon saying hey this is on the state thing national National is coming soon.
Sam: So I was really happy. Now I say Wednesday, but really it was,
Sam: I did an all nighter Wednesday into Thursday morning, but, but I did it and
Sam: I was really happy with the progress.
Sam: I was, I felt like I was a little bit behind my intended schedule,
Sam: but I was, I was okay. So Thursday I started working on the national stuff.
Sam: Wait, I'm getting the timelines confused, whatever. It doesn't matter. I had the state stuff.
Sam: Worked and I moved on to the national, like all the days have sort of merged into each other.
Sam: Cause I pulled a couple all nighters and when I have slept, it's been like three
Sam: or four hours and then I've gotten up again.
Sam: And the first half of the week I was doing this thing where I was alternating
Sam: with other activities I wanted to get done.
Sam: Like for instance, I did an upgrade to wiki of the day early in the week as well.
Sam: Uh, you know, I, let's see the, the, the two main things are one, uh.
Sam: Has a wider variety of voices than it had before. Like the, the service I use to do it,
Sam: Polly had added new voice engines and I had stuff in place to automatically
Sam: take into account of new voices within existing engines, but they added new engines.
Sam: So I had to like change things to, to, to take advantage of those new voices, which I did.
Sam: And also one thing that's bugged me about wiki of the day from the very beginning
Sam: was that compared to other podcasts, the volume was a little low. really.
Ivan: Yeah i don't think so okay.
Sam: It's it's just a little like normally like
Sam: most podcasts are normalized to what's called like by something called luffs
Sam: and it's like negative 16 luffs is standard and the wiki of the day was a little
Sam: softer than that but i didn't have a good way to normalize to luffs i i it was
Sam: only like you know i think there was a way you could just say louder butter, please.
Sam: But anyway, I figured out how to normalize it to love. So it's now normalized
Sam: to the same levels that curmudgeon's corners normalized to et cetera, et cetera.
Sam: No one cares about that, but I did some, I did some, cause whenever I was listening
Sam: to podcasts in the car and wiki of the day came on, I'd have to turn it up a
Sam: little bit to be the same as the others.
Sam: And that was, that's been bugging me for years. I finally fixed it.
Sam: Anyway, the first half of the week I was doing other stuff. I was cleaning around
Sam: the house. I was doing some dishes. I was doing some laundry.
Sam: And by the time we got to Wednesday afternoon, I was like, no,
Sam: I have to like concentrate on this.
Sam: And so anyway, I got the state detail pages done. I was really happy with them,
Sam: how they turned out. They looked great.
Sam: And then I started doing the, the national stuff. And I have a test page where
Sam: I'm sort of building all the stuff. And I was really, really happy with the progress there.
Sam: And then I did something.
Ivan: You did something. something wow i.
Sam: I did something yeah.
Ivan: What did you do.
Sam: Basically i fucking broke everything ah.
Ivan: Great that's always always always very you know.
Sam: And of course like i do this crap by the seat of my pants editing things directly
Sam: on the server without any version management whatever blah blah backups you.
Ivan: Know yeah no.
Sam: I have i had some backups well i did i did have like yeah.
Ivan: But But not version management, I get, you know.
Sam: Not recently enough. Like, I had a backup from before I started doing any of this work.
Sam: I didn't have stuff that I could go back to, like, where I was an hour ago.
Ivan: You could, exactly, yeah.
Ivan: You couldn't roll. You couldn't just roll back.
Sam: I couldn't just roll back. And of course, anybody out there in the software
Sam: world is going to be like, well, Sam, you deserve everything you fucking get, you know?
Ivan: Yes, you do. Yes, you do.
Sam: Like this is best practices that people have known for decades, you know? And yes.
Sam: Um, but no, no, I'm sitting there directly editing files on the server, on the live server.
Sam: And like something breaks and I'm like, Oh, that's interesting.
Sam: It breaks. And then I fix it. But then I got myself into a real mess.
Sam: Like, all kinds of things weren't working right.
Ivan: Yeah, right. And you could just roll it back.
Sam: No. And right now, at this very second, like, I'm distracted as I'm talking
Sam: to Yvonne because I'm discovering more things screwed up on the live site as
Sam: we're speaking. Like, and...
Ivan: Good work, Sam.
Sam: Yeah, so... And my time is up. Like, I took the week off, not two weeks off.
Sam: I do have the weekend, but I have...
Ivan: I told you to take two fucking weeks off.
Sam: Off i know i know i know but anyway so like i.
Ivan: Mean next week is a fucking short week anyway.
Sam: I know i know i've got the weekend and
Sam: i've got blah blah blah but anyway so like i'm
Sam: looking at like one of the graphs on there and i'm like that graph is completely
Sam: wrong that graph is wrong why is that graph wrong what did i screw up on that
Sam: one the other thing that i did was i had the way I originally set it up to do
Sam: like some of the stuff was fast enough,
Sam: but use too much memory.
Sam: So like if I was trying to do deal with too many pages at the same time,
Sam: it would blow up my server's memory.
Sam: So I've been trying to change it to something that is, that would be faster,
Sam: but I ended up making it slower instead.
Sam: And so that's no good. Like, and, and like once it's cached.
Sam: You can just bring up the cache. But the thing is, if something changes,
Sam: then it like takes a little bit to like calculate the new results and cache
Sam: the new version of the page and all this kind of stuff.
Sam: And the problem is that time to do the caching moved from minutes to like an
Sam: hour. And I'm like, oh man.
Sam: And so like, anyway, so like I've been.
Sam: I've been beside myself like all freaking day to day, like since about 11 a.m.
Sam: Like was when whatever I did that started breaking things happened.
Sam: And I've been trying to recover from that ever fucking since.
Sam: And it is not there yet. I was actually, I think I was just realizing and during
Sam: the next break, I'll do this.
Sam: That it's, it's in a bad enough state right now that I'm going to put like a
Sam: little red warning on the homepage or whatever saying things are screwed up
Sam: right now. Come back later.
Sam: You know, cause it's just, it's just a mess right now. Like some of these,
Sam: I'm like, I don't know what the hell it's doing.
Sam: And I like as recently as like, like I said, around 11 AM today,
Sam: Friday, I was like, this is going really well.
Sam: I might even finish this before I talk to Yvonne for the podcast.
Sam: And then everything went to hell and then completely to hell and it's all messed up.
Sam: And I I'm, I'm like, I was thinking that I'd be done with that and I do the
Sam: podcast and then go get some sleep.
Sam: And then in the morning, like, and then, you know, maybe clean up some stuff
Sam: over the weekend, but it was, would be basically done and I could move on to other things.
Sam: Instead, I'm now thinking as soon as I get done with this podcast,
Sam: it's back to debugging bugging and it's another freaking all-nighter probably.
Ivan: Nice. Yeah. There you go. Congratulations, Sam. Good work.
Sam: Yeah, like even the stuff that I launched, even the stuff that I launched like
Sam: Wednesday and put out the announcement about and everything,
Sam: it was like, it was great. That stuff screwed up right now too.
Sam: It's like, and anyway, so.
Sam: So anyway, coming soon, I will fix all this stuff.
Sam: It's just been a pain in my ass. And, and, and it's frustrating because it felt
Sam: like it was all going so well and it was coming together exactly the way I had
Sam: it planned. And then it all blew up.
Sam: Nice good job congratulations yeah congratulations
Sam: that's exactly right so i'm i'm researching
Sam: stuff on how to like improve performance in one place and then in another in
Sam: another place i'm like you know i'm like how do i do this in memory caches instead
Sam: of off disk and stuff like that and then made one attempt and it didn't work
Sam: right and then i'm making another attempt and that didn't work.
Sam: And now I'm like, okay, this isn't working, so I have to set up this other thing,
Sam: and I don't know, blah, blah, blah. And meanwhile, like I said, other things broke.
Sam: And I feel like some of it is almost certainly like data's getting saved to
Sam: the wrong place and overwriting something it shouldn't.
Sam: And I know I can, it's just a matter of tracking it all down.
Sam: And at this point, I'm tired.
Sam: But the problem is live, so I need to fix it. yeah.
Ivan: So is it is it is it because of your age sam it.
Sam: Probably is because of my age it's it's because,
Sam: i'm decrepit and over the hill yep and
Sam: i'm cranky and the fact
Sam: that i'm an old tech curmudgeon is one of the reasons i'm doing things like
Sam: edit live on the damn server like if i'd been brought up any more recently than
Sam: i was i would have been in indoctrinated into the proper use of all these these
Sam: technologies to save you from shit like this from, from the very beginning,
Sam: you know, I'd have, I'd have a staging server.
Sam: I would have a version management. I'd have this, I'd have that.
Sam: And in a professional capacity, I know all this stuff in a, what the hell I do at home.
Sam: I'm just like, let's edit it live.
Ivan: Ah, fuck it. Live, live in production, baby.
Sam: Exactly. You know? And so, So, oh, man.
Sam: So, yeah. Yeah. So I'm like, I'm frustrated right now because I was I was it
Sam: was so close. I felt it to being done. And then kaboom.
Sam: Everything's fucked now well um you'll.
Ivan: Get you'll be you'll figure it out.
Sam: I i'm sure i will figure it
Sam: out but in the meantime i'm unhappy well i'm smiling while i say that it's like
Sam: it's kind of been fun well the the get the making it actually work was kind
Sam: of fun the stress of oh my god not everything's broken, less fun, less fun.
Ivan: Less fun, but you know.
Sam: It is what it is. So, all right, I should, I should eat sometime too.
Sam: I don't think I've eaten in a while.
Ivan: That, that would be good.
Sam: But you know, whatever I eat, I'll, I'll eat the website.
Ivan: Oh, that's that though. That'll be tasty.
Sam: Yeah.
Ivan: You just print it all, but it's just take all the code, just print,
Ivan: print everything, print, you know, reveal all the, uh, html encoding and whatever on every page i.
Sam: Was thinking more of a fax service where somebody could fax me a request for
Sam: information on what's going on in a state and i would sort of manually write
Sam: out a response and fax it back.
Ivan: That's something i haven't done in quite a while you know i had somebody that
Ivan: i think i can't remember what the heck it was this was like not that long ago
Ivan: that was like the way this was communication was working i i i they they said
Ivan: that they didn't use email, that they would just use fax.
Ivan: So I would write out a fax and I could, I used to be able to fax from my computer.
Ivan: I talked about this, that my service got discontinued, but that I could fax
Ivan: from the computer and then they would write a note on paper and then fax it back to me.
Sam: Lovely. Okay. Well, you mentioned our ages, so I think it's time to take a break.
Sam: And I guess there's an obvious topic, which is the Biden-Trump debate.
Sam: And then there might be some other things to talk about.
Ivan: Maybe.
Sam: We're going to start with that, right?
Ivan: Yeah. Okay. We'll start with that.
Sam: We'll start with that.
Ivan: I guess we have to.
Sam: We have to. There's no choice. There's no choice. We will be back after this.
Sam: Okay.
Ivan: Well, let me ask a question because this was recorded a while back.
Ivan: Does Alex still hate curmudgeon's corner?
Sam: Alex, do you still hate curmudgeon's corner? He nods. Yes, he does.
Ivan: Okay. All right. Good. So, okay. So that hasn't changed. Okay.
Sam: So during the break, I did, like I said, I put a big red note on election graphs.com.
Sam: Oops. I've been trying to do some up, some upgrades to the site and instead broke a bunch of stuff.
Sam: Don't trust anything you see at the moment. I'm working on it. Come back later.
Ivan: Good job, Sam.
Sam: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there are some things that are still correct,
Sam: but like there's a lot that's not. So yeah.
Sam: Anyway, hopefully this will be fixed by the end of the weekend.
Sam: Hopefully it'll be fixed tonight, but realistically, maybe not.
Sam: We'll see. Cause I'm tired anyway.
Sam: So somebody else was tired. Yvonne.
Ivan: You mean the, the president of the United States?
Sam: Yes. the president of the united states.
Ivan: I'm gonna okay you know i
Ivan: don't i don't i don't know
Ivan: if it's worth going over any of the details of
Ivan: the debate here here's my take about the the actual details
Ivan: of the debate itself yeah and it's
Ivan: and and a reason why i i haven't like really watched
Ivan: a lot of these things in recent times it's more
Ivan: important what whatever the conversation around
Ivan: it is than anything that actually happens okay
Ivan: yes yeah i mean you
Ivan: know because that's irrelevant it doesn't matter it doesn't matter how i view
Ivan: it because that that you know that it's just my view and i have my perspective
Ivan: on what i believe about each of the candidates and so that that's it's really
Ivan: irrelevant. What's irrelevant is what,
Ivan: People's takeaways are from the thing. And so with that in mind,
Ivan: you know, this, this morning was a morning of quite a lot of,
Ivan: well, even last night and this morning has been of quite a lot of aggressive
Ivan: reactions by many people,
Ivan: you know, in, in the democratic side. I mean, I, I just saw.
Sam: So, so since we didn't say it, let's just start with the fact.
Sam: Yeah. All of this reaction has been due to the near universal feelings that
Sam: Joe Biden did not do well at this debate.
Ivan: Correct.
Sam: And Donald Trump had his issues, but had to had Donald Trump came off better
Sam: from a certain perspectives than than Joe Biden, at least relative to expectations.
Ivan: Like, I think that that's the key thing.
Ivan: Relative to expectations, Donald Trump significantly overperformed relative
Ivan: to the average expectation and Biden significantly underperformed.
Ivan: Yeah, that's the reality.
Sam: I mean, when we talked about this debate over the last couple of weeks,
Sam: we basically, we were focused on Donald Trump.
Sam: We were like, look, in all of his recent public appearances,
Sam: he's seemed scattered and addled and like not coherent, particularly.
Ivan: And tired.
Sam: And tired and whatever. The Donald Trump that showed up to the debate was the
Sam: usual sort of lying bastard without a sense for the truth or without any morals
Sam: and with horrible policy ideas.
Sam: But he was energetic.
Ivan: He was energetic.
Sam: He was forceful. He was able, he was responding quickly on his feet.
Sam: Meanwhile, the Joe Biden we got was not the Joe Biden from the state of the
Sam: union or certain other events.
Sam: He, he had a cold. yeah he
Sam: his his voice was not
Sam: strong he looked tired
Sam: he would like just as he was standing there
Sam: he often just had his mouth open while he was looking at donald trump giving
Sam: his answers and then at various points in the conversation he sort of was trying
Sam: to rattle off some things and sort of got lost and confused as to what he was
Sam: trying to say and had to circle back and And basically,
Sam: it was just not a good look for Joe Biden at all.
Sam: And so to what you were starting to say, the entire political universe on the left has been in – well,
Sam: I want to split this up into a couple of groups. There's some –.
Sam: That have always been anti-Biden who are like, I told you so,
Sam: you should have dumped him a long time ago.
Sam: There are a lot of people who are Biden supporters who seem to be in somewhat of a panic.
Sam: Meanwhile, of course, the MAGA guys are gloating and are very excited about how well their guy did.
Sam: And they're also like, we told you so, Joe Biden's going senile, blah, blah, blah.
Sam: And so it's been a spiral of negativity from the moment the debate started frankly
Sam: i mean i i've sent my first negative comment about oh shit this isn't going
Sam: well within like a minute like.
Ivan: Like in the first minute first couple of minutes yeah yeah it was very quickly.
Sam: Yeah and and but it's spiraled to like all kinds of people talking about how
Sam: joe biden should pull out talking about brokered conventions talking about like
Sam: one one person even suggested that he should resign the presidency not just
Sam: the candidacy yeah you know the.
Ivan: New york times editorial board.
Sam: Is saying.
Ivan: That he should resign which is just i i.
Sam: Not run or resign from the presidency or.
Ivan: Not run right.
Sam: Because one person said he should resign from the presidency but right.
Ivan: Right okay but but can i look i'm gonna Today, like later in the afternoon,
Ivan: as I was driving home from my long day, one thing dawned upon me very quickly.
Ivan: We did have a conversation at our late lunch about this, but one thing dawned upon me very quickly.
Ivan: You know, Sam, that in two weeks, no one is going to remember this fucking thing.
Ivan: But let me listen.
Sam: Yeah, okay, finish, and then I'll counter.
Ivan: Okay, maybe they'll remember it, but it's immaterial.
Ivan: And I'm going to tell you, look, you remember when the Grab Him By The Pussy tapes came out?
Sam: Yes, I do.
Ivan: How quickly after that did anybody not give two fucks about what's-his-name
Ivan: and the Grambyte pussy tapes?
Sam: Well, it's all a question of what news comes up to supplant it, right?
Ivan: Correct. Well, here's the thing that's coming to supplant it, Sam.
Sam: The Supreme Court ruling on Monday?
Ivan: No.
Sam: Trump's sentencing?
Ivan: That's right. And that's coming up pretty damn soon.
Ivan: Okay and i i'm just like it's.
Sam: On the 11th i think right.
Ivan: On the 11th yeah let me
Ivan: tell you something these cycles with
Ivan: this shit okay i mean
Ivan: listen if this is not
Ivan: forgotten just like the state
Ivan: of the union right was what february yeah
Ivan: how quickly did people forget about the state
Ivan: of the union and i mean 50 about a large
Ivan: number of people saw that too okay yeah yeah
Ivan: i mean how quickly now it seems that nobody remembers that three weeks ago we're
Ivan: all jumping up and down in joy because trump was convicted he was convinced
Ivan: that he's now a convicted felon yeah it doesn't seem like it was an eternity
Ivan: when trump was convicted it's.
Sam: Always been that way hasn't it.
Ivan: Yeah and so So attention.
Sam: Spans are really small. Lots of people still aren't focused.
Sam: But look, I mean, here's everybody.
Ivan: Listen here. But look, the reality is that related to what we saw and from what
Ivan: I've been hearing, because I was out talking to people,
Ivan: listen, most people have these opinions formed already.
Sam: Yeah.
Ivan: Biden's old. Trump's a piece of shit.
Sam: Well, we've, we've always said everything is about the margins.
Sam: Like, you know, there, there's this small slice of people who actually could
Sam: change what they're doing.
Ivan: But the question is about this, right? And, and that's the question is what
Ivan: the hell their reaction is to this.
Ivan: And will they remember it by the time it's supposed to matter?
Ivan: Okay. When we're talking that it's June and the election is in November. Okay. Okay.
Ivan: And so again, I really think that this entire crazy, ridiculous reaction is, is,
Ivan: is way over the top because as much as Biden under, you know,
Ivan: did not come off, did not perform well yesterday and he didn't, and he didn't. Okay.
Ivan: I agree that he didn't. And I'm just, you know, maybe I think that one of the
Ivan: things that I measured today that colors my thinking about this is that, I don't know.
Ivan: I mean, you and I have seen Biden in the public stage for what, over 30 years.
Ivan: OK, Biden had a fucking presidential campaign already derailed by him,
Ivan: his mistakes in public speaking.
Ivan: Literally, this is what derailed one of his first presidential campaigns,
Ivan: a series of gaffes that he kept committing that were related to him in public.
Ivan: Public he has been he went
Ivan: to this debate obviously prepared
Ivan: for the wrong type of debate he was
Ivan: like focused on the minutiae and the stuff and basically what they should have
Ivan: done is let him rest fuck whatever the details are and just have him up there
Ivan: and be forceful even if the facts are all wrong because nobody gives a fuck about the facts i.
Sam: I couldn't like Like, I had this conversation briefly with somebody on Mastodon,
Sam: like, where I was like, you know, he was badly prepared for this debate.
Sam: And they're like, he was well prepared at Camp David, seven days.
Sam: And we're talking about the most professional politicos in the world.
Sam: The prep was world class. And I'm like, look.
Ivan: Prepared for what?
Sam: What is it? Unfortunately, and I don't understand it because this same mistake
Sam: has been made over and over again by incumbent presidents coming into their
Sam: first debates like and other candidates too.
Sam: It's like they always are stuffing them full of facts and saying,
Sam: right, you got to memorize these things and you got to make sure to hit these
Sam: talking points and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Sam: And almost invariably the candidate who does that.
Sam: Comes off looking badly. And then there's a round of people saying,
Sam: you got to just let the candidate be the candidate, let them be themselves,
Sam: you know, and all of this kind of stuff, because you made them,
Sam: they, they come off as unnatural, even if they do it well, they come off as unnatural.
Sam: And if they do it badly, like Joe Biden did, it just is disastrous.
Sam: Now, having said that Is the prep all of it?
Sam: This person who was talking to me was just going on about how it's clearly dementia,
Sam: he's sundowning, blah, blah, blah.
Ivan: Well, is the prep all of it? Well, here's the problem. If they knew that he
Ivan: had a cold, the question was...
Sam: It's a no-win scenario. What do you do?
Ivan: Exactly. Because I'm like, okay. Because one call could have been,
Ivan: fuck it. We're canceled.
Ivan: You know? We're canceled. canceling but man that would have looked very bad
Ivan: that would have looked off right to just go and cancel it.
Sam: Was a no-win scenario it.
Ivan: Was a no-win scenario and so you agreed to this and they.
Sam: Should have had been a full isolation protocol for two weeks before the debate.
Ivan: Yeah basically Basically, but you know, so, but you had it.
Ivan: So that was, that would have been also a problem, but maybe not as bad.
Sam: Yeah.
Ivan: Is what I'm thinking.
Sam: Yeah.
Ivan: I, I, I'm thinking that, you know, people get sick, you know,
Ivan: whatever you say, listen, you're, you're, you know, just cancel it.
Sam: Well, the thing is like the, and I, I put a lot of it on the prep as well as
Sam: the being sick because immediately after the stupid debate.
Sam: He went to like a watch party that, and like watching him on the, on video,
Sam: like meeting and greeting at that watch party and the little remarks he gave
Sam: at the beginning, he was instantly miles better than he'd been at the debate.
Sam: And then let alone the rally he had on Friday.
Ivan: I think it goes back. Listen, but the prep part, listen, the prep part, listen, the prep part.
Ivan: Yeah. Let me just say this. The prep part. We're under...
Ivan: The prep, I'm sure it wasn't just about the details.
Ivan: I think that based on the debate rules, okay, they said, well,
Ivan: this is what's going to work.
Ivan: Because I kept thinking of, based on the rules as they were written,
Ivan: I remember some old debates a long time ago where a question would be asked,
Ivan: one candidate would answer, the other candidate had a time to rebut,
Ivan: the other candidate had time.
Ivan: Time and the time was strictly managed.
Ivan: And that was that. Based on what I saw in the rules, that's what it looked like would happen.
Ivan: But I was not watching the debate. But the one thing that they had on the New
Ivan: York Times page was this thing that measured how much time was being given to each candidate to talk.
Ivan: And the reality is that I guess the Biden folks, maybe they thought,
Ivan: you know the cnn was going to manage the time but they sure as hell did not they let trump talk.
Ivan: Way longer on every question than than biden had they weren't managing hey it's
Ivan: like because i remember i'm thinking debate no you have one minute then you
Ivan: got minutes to rebut no so they They were letting them talk and talk and talk and talk and talk.
Ivan: And Biden thinking, well, all I got to do is respond and, you know,
Ivan: say my details about this and then we're done.
Ivan: And we're going to just let Trump look crazy.
Ivan: And the problem is that that really didn't work.
Sam: Well, no, it doesn't work. First of all, the fact that Trump is crazy is baked
Sam: in. Everybody has known that for years.
Sam: But second, like, and Democrats in general, and I hate to paint with a broad
Sam: brush, but it's a recurring theme.
Sam: Democrats in general like to be wonks. They like to talk policy.
Sam: They like to talk like government and how it works and like the details of how,
Sam: you know, how things we're going to do this and then that's going to do this.
Sam: And this is why it's good for you and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Sam: And that doesn't resonate with the general public.
Sam: Now, for folks like us who are into those details and follow things closely.
Sam: OK, yeah, that sounds great. Great. But for the wide audience,
Sam: it's all about the emotional connection and how you make people feel.
Sam: It's not about the specifics of your damn policy.
Sam: Like, yes, like the specifics of your policy matter when you're governing,
Sam: when you're running for office,
Sam: like they are, they are sort of the, they look, I'm not saying ignore policy
Sam: policy does matter, but the thing that's going to get people out is you have
Sam: to excite them. You have to make them feel good.
Sam: You have to like, you have to appeal to their emotions, not to their brains.
Sam: Like appealing to the brain is always a sure way to lose.
Ivan: Well, I mean, I think it's just,
Ivan: I mean, you mentioned policy specifics, but, you know, and you're right.
Ivan: If you went and I saw somebody that said, listen, if you pull down the transcript
Ivan: of the debate, forget about looking at it.
Ivan: And you just read the transcripts.
Sam: Yes.
Ivan: You would have thought, ah, this went okay. You know, maybe a draw.
Ivan: I mean, you know, Trump said just a whole bunch of, and you actually,
Ivan: you might have thought that Biden won.
Ivan: Because you know like i mean i was
Ivan: looking at some of the crazy shit that trump said yesterday that nobody is focusing
Ivan: on today on abortion for example well apparently by the way i i didn't know
Ivan: sam i there's there's black the black jobs did you uh.
Sam: Yeah yeah yeah.
Ivan: Yeah well in other times i
Ivan: mean people would have been fucking focused on
Ivan: this kind of shit okay i mean
Ivan: black jobs sam what what the fuck are
Ivan: the black jobs you want to explain to me what the fuck the black jobs are i
Ivan: guess janna i'm sure that in his mind it's fucking you know i guess uh you know
Ivan: picking cotton and cleaning floors is that what it is uh-huh but that's what
Ivan: he said on the fucking stage Yeah.
Sam: I know.
Ivan: I got people going crazy because Biden sounded tired when that fucker said that on stage.
Sam: Yes.
Ivan: I mean, seriously. So I'm going to, you know, I will go back.
Ivan: And I think that the guy that probably had the best perspective on this,
Ivan: because he's unfortunately had to live through this, was Fetter.
Ivan: Fetterman today basically said, and he literally said, replied how I said, fuck all of you.
Sam: And he literally said it.
Ivan: And thank you. Thank you, John, for channeling me. Okay.
Ivan: He said, listen, I've had the bad debate like this where everybody basically
Ivan: said that I should quit the race because that happened to Fetterman at the debate.
Ivan: Okay. And what he said is like, you know what? Fuck all of you.
Ivan: This is just moronic.
Ivan: I don't, you know, the whole problem with this replace them thing.
Ivan: Okay. Start off with where all these people.
Sam: Yes. Yeah. There are a few. Go ahead.
Ivan: It's just this man. Most of the information tells you that this is a bad idea.
Ivan: That it probably guarantees a Trump win.
Ivan: That's the that's that's all any
Ivan: other time that a presidential candidate has
Ivan: like harry truman for example or lyndon
Ivan: johnson whoever the fuck it was okay i
Ivan: decided not to run it's been bad
Ivan: every other time that we've had a candidate who
Ivan: has been the incumbent okay even
Ivan: you know with issues shoes they have
Ivan: had a tailwind that has made them over perform
Ivan: versus whatever the fuck the polls
Ivan: have said bush in 2004 with
Ivan: the gulf war with all this shit with bad
Ivan: debates because he had bad debates right okay what and still one okay and he
Ivan: had all of this shit behind him trump barely lost okay and he had a pandemic
Ivan: that killed millions and the guy.
Ivan: Way over performed what the
Ivan: fuck the polling said polling was saying months before oh
Ivan: my god biden's this should be a you
Ivan: know eight points whatever the fuck
Ivan: it was and it was way closer
Ivan: than that i mean it really came down to
Ivan: just a few fucking thousand votes in multiple states right
Ivan: and so and and that is a
Ivan: testament to the fucking advantage of the incumbency.
Ivan: Scene because people wind up
Ivan: at the moment that they get up there they're thinking about
Ivan: well the psychopath or fuck
Ivan: i stay with this old guy like right now who you know i mean he's done pretty
Ivan: decent but but he's old and senile whatever the fuck else they say about him
Ivan: you know and that for whatever the hell reason historically has had significant weight Well.
Sam: Here's the thing, too. The difference between some of the historical examples,
Sam: because almost every incumbent president who has had a bad first debate performance,
Sam: and there are a number of reasons why that might be, but this is the first one
Sam: that's had this level of reaction to it with all the calls to drop out and this
Sam: and that. And here's the thing.
Sam: The reaction to the debate is far more damaging than the debate itself.
Ivan: Oh, I agree. But here's one thing about this. I think, okay,
Ivan: but we are also in a situation that is far different.
Ivan: And I think the Democrats, because the Democrats are far more scared.
Ivan: You say, this isn't 2004.
Ivan: This isn't 92.
Ivan: You're not thinking that the other guy is going to try a coup.
Ivan: I'm wondering why the overreaction?
Ivan: That's why the overreaction. Okay. I really think that that,
Ivan: you know, there is in America, in a large part of America.
Ivan: And I'm talking about for not voters, just adults in general,
Ivan: a sense of fear about Trump getting back to the presidency, a sense of fear
Ivan: that is not, I'm worried about Romney being president.
Sam: Right.
Ivan: And I think that's why the overreaction is so bad.
Ivan: I mean, we've had fucking people have bad debates before or bad performances or whatever.
Ivan: I just think that the level of of panic is is related to the level of what they
Ivan: see, probably not incorrectly, as the threat of a Trump presidency.
Ivan: But but again, the problem is why the fuck why the fuck did in 2020 we wind
Ivan: up with Biden as a candidate?
Ivan: Hell, I didn't even vote for Biden, the fucking primary.
Ivan: OK, and I like Joe.
Ivan: Okay. But for some fucking reason, most of the voters in the democratic party
Ivan: wound up voting for Biden.
Ivan: Okay. And my philosophy is like, look, I like Joe.
Ivan: It wasn't my first choice and I'm going to support Joe.
Ivan: And like right now, no credible opponent showed up. You've got Joe there.
Ivan: And Joe is Joe. I mean, that's what he is.
Ivan: And I'm just like, what the fuck?
Ivan: Why are you guys trying to put in a fix that the reality is that if you look
Ivan: at the data, it probably makes it worse for November.
Ivan: Okay? I don't see how any of the options makes it better.
Sam: Well, there are a couple of things here.
Sam: One, I think you're right that part of the reason for the panic is that people
Sam: are like, Donald Trump is so bad.
Sam: The risks of him winning are really high.
Sam: The other part of it is people are not taking this as he had one bad debate.
Sam: They are taking it as this is proof that folks were right all along.
Sam: And like the, the, the, the people on the far left and the MAGA folks,
Sam: when they're saying, you know, dementia Joe, and that he's losing it and he's
Sam: diminished and he can't handle the job.
Ivan: But here, here's the fucking problem. I, my, my thing is that,
Ivan: yeah, they're taking is proof of dementia. And I'm like, what dementia?
Ivan: All he, you know, he stumbled, he was slow, he had a raspy voice.
Ivan: It's a fucking dementia. The fuck is wrong with all of you?
Sam: And again, like the event immediately after the debate, he pepped up and he
Sam: was happy and he had energy and he did a rally in North Carolina on Friday afternoon and it was good.
Ivan: Right.
Sam: It was, I mean, again, he was energetic, he was passionate, he was whatever.
Sam: And like for both of those things, I'm like, why the hell didn't that guy show
Sam: up at the fucking debate, you know, like, and, and, you know,
Sam: maybe he's just feeling a little bit better than he was.
Sam: Maybe it was the over-preparation. I don't know, but I am not,
Sam: you know, and people are like, well, you know, that's how like,
Sam: you know, mental decline goes.
Sam: You have your good moments and your bad moments. And I'm sure that's true,
Sam: but like, and you know, So the person on Mastodon said, I'm in denial.
Sam: You know, I'm like, you know, if and here's the thing, too, like part of it
Sam: for me is if something does happen to Joe, I'm fine with Kamala.
Ivan: So am I. I mean, that's the thing. Well, I'm like, oh, my God.
Ivan: So what happens if Joe dies?
Ivan: Well, fuck. I mean, so you've got Kamala. What's the problem?
Sam: Right.
Ivan: I mean, that's been my thing. I mean, I'm like, what is the fucking problem?
Ivan: What the hell is the fucking problem?
Ivan: I mean, I don't get it.
Sam: And honestly, I would not be
Sam: surprised if Joe Biden wins if he doesn't serve out the full four years.
Sam: Like, four years is a long time at that age.
Sam: A lot can happen. I wouldn't be surprised if at some point he decided his health
Sam: was declining, he wanted to spend time with his family, whatever,
Sam: and handed it over to Kamala. And the thing is, I'm okay with that.
Sam: But of course, like the MAGA folks are like, you vote for Joe,
Sam: you're actually getting Kamala.
Sam: Like, it's a bad thing, you know, but I mean.
Ivan: Right. Why, why is that a bad thing? The main thing about this,
Ivan: all this shit that we're talking about is shit that I've already heard repeated
Ivan: over and over the negative things about Biden.
Ivan: And and I think that from what I what I keep seeing is that there there is a
Ivan: number of people that have had that perspective the entire time and they will
Ivan: never get off of it. It doesn't matter what Biden does.
Ivan: It doesn't matter what Biden does.
Ivan: He's old, he's senile, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever.
Ivan: And they have been saying that for shit. I mean, since he was,
Ivan: since he ran the first time around it.
Ivan: So, so I just don't see how you move these people off of that.
Sam: No, but, but I think one thing is true and like, you're right.
Sam: There are going to be news events that push this off the headlines,
Sam: but I think Joe and he started already with that rally on Friday.
Sam: But he has to turn this narrative around because right now it's like spiraling.
Ivan: Listen, he has to. Okay. Listen, I turned a narrative around.
Sam: Like he needs to be having events like with the one he had in North Carolina,
Sam: like every freaking day.
Ivan: No, no, no. I get that. But, but I, but, but listen, I, I.
Sam: He, he has to show that he has to show that the debate was an aberration, not the norm.
Ivan: Well, okay, now that's correct.
Ivan: But all that does, all that does...
Ivan: Is maybe it just it just shuts down the volume of these people that are screaming
Ivan: for biden to to you know to quit drop out and drop out that basically thought
Ivan: that all i thought that all along yeah.
Sam: Like there's a lot of people in that boat who are who who never wanted biden
Sam: never liked Biden and this is their excuse.
Sam: You know, like we've been saying forever, everybody's like, are these really the two choices?
Sam: And are desperate for any thread to hang on to of some scenario that gets you
Sam: to somebody else besides these two.
Sam: And look, at the moment, like people have been talking about the rules of the
Sam: DNC and committed delegates and blah, blah, blah.
Sam: Basically, the only way for Biden not to end up the nominee is if he chooses not to be the nominee.
Sam: There is not a reasonable mechanism for the delegates to abandon him in flight
Sam: because they are bound by the votes in the primaries for the first ballot,
Sam: and he's got enough to win.
Sam: So people have been talking about scenarios where, well, maybe we can get Jill
Sam: Biden to To convince him not to run.
Sam: Or maybe Obama can go talk to him. Or something like that.
Ivan: But again. Sam. Here's one thing. Anything about.
Sam: I think it would hurt.
Ivan: And that's my point. I'm like okay. You know what. I'm like okay.
Ivan: Because a lot of people are saying. Biden doesn't run. But not really giving
Ivan: me. What the hell is a compelling.
Ivan: Thing that we can do. that wins this election by having your incumbent president not run again.
Ivan: I'm, you know, I, I just, I'm, I, I, I, I, because if there was every.
Sam: Other potential candidate has their own negatives.
Ivan: Yeah.
Sam: Now, you know, like people talk about Kamala, but frankly, you know,
Sam: a lot of people didn't like her last time around, uh,
Sam: in, in the primaries and Republicans, like a whole bunch of Republicans have,
Sam: are going to have issues with both the black part and the woman part.
Ivan: No, no kidding.
Sam: And so like you got a bunch of swing voters that like people always used to
Sam: say that Hillary Clinton lost 5% right off the top just because of sexism.
Sam: I think Kamala would be up against the same kind of fight.
Sam: Now I think she might be able to do it.
Ivan: But, and the fact that she's African American and that.
Sam: And you know, so, but you know what, you're going to go with Newsome from California.
Sam: Like most people don't know him.
Ivan: You know, that carries a lot of baggage. Well, Well, I think people know him,
Ivan: but Newsom has a lot of baggage, you know.
Sam: Well, junkies like us knew him. If you pick a random person off the street in
Sam: Idaho, they have no idea.
Ivan: They wouldn't know who the fuck he is. I mean, that's my point.
Ivan: Who the fuck are you putting up that really is known and as a well-known quantity as,
Ivan: say, Obama obama or or or biden or hillary clinton for that matter any any of
Ivan: those who who the fuck is and the answer is nobody you've got nobody that you
Ivan: you really don't have a good option well.
Sam: So like the the one guy who is suggesting obama resign from the presidency not just not run are.
Ivan: You Biden.
Sam: Oh, Biden. Sorry. Yeah.
Sam: I'm as...
Ivan: I mean, Obama's going to resign?
Sam: I'm as old and cantankerous as Biden. No, but part of their theory for this,
Sam: and I forget who it was, some talking head on one of the cable networks, blah, blah, blah.
Sam: But they were a Democrat who was like, you let Kamala be president for a few months.
Sam: That'll give her the boost she needs to win.
Sam: But it's all super high risk.
Sam: And I know what people are saying is like, well, leaving them there is high risk too. And that's why.
Ivan: It's a whole lot of less risk than fucking just plucking like Gavin Newsom and
Ivan: sticking them at the head of the ticket or.
Sam: Whitmer or various other people.
Ivan: Or Whitmer or any, any of them.
Sam: Yeah. And look,
Sam: The thing is, any of these changing horse scenarios are super, super, super high risk.
Sam: And I think people underestimate that. Because the thing is,
Sam: the Democrats look even weaker in that scenario.
Ivan: Hell yeah!
Sam: It's not like, oh, they've done the right thing and now they've got somebody strong.
Sam: It's like, look how disorganized and messy they are that they can't even blah, blah, blah.
Sam: And i mean you can say all the same things about like the
Sam: republicans picking trump but like you know convicted criminal
Sam: and all this kind of stuff but you know i don't
Sam: know like do i do i wish joe biden was younger yes yeah i wish he had do i wish
Sam: he had a little bit more like charisma yes do i wish that he was a bit more
Sam: energetic sure like we spent 2020 talking about
Sam: how we really, really wanted somebody in a younger generation to,
Sam: and we wanted these folks to pass the torch, but it didn't happen.
Sam: You know, it didn't happen. And so, you know, and there was a lot of evidence
Sam: that the younger folks would not have done as well as Biden.
Sam: Biden won 2020 because he was like the, the, he was nobody's first choice,
Sam: but lots of people were okay with him.
Sam: And the problem is now there's a lot of people who are like,
Sam: well, you know, we've had almost four years of him and you know, I'm not really happy.
Sam: And they're not, and they're not the fact that like, what would Trump do?
Sam: Ah, you know, well, he wasn't that bad.
Sam: He'll be fine. You know, all these people are exaggerating about all the things
Sam: they say about him, you know, blah, blah, blah.
Ivan: Uh, somebody with a Twitter handle reason versus fear called Lee.
Ivan: It says Lisa Brown tweeted.
Ivan: Oh my God, you guys, that Roosevelt guy is in a wheelchair. I'm going to have
Ivan: to switch my vote to Hitler. He looks strong.
Ivan: Yes. That is how stupid some of you sound.
Sam: Yeah.
Ivan: I, you know, I, I, yeah.
Ivan: I mean, that, that's basically the crux of it. it i
Ivan: i just i mean the whole
Ivan: it's just this
Ivan: guy i mean i i just i i
Ivan: i really think and i i understand that my impression yeah which is one reason
Ivan: why i didn't didn't watch this because i'm pretty sure that it wasn't going
Ivan: to change my my opinion of either of them i mean i'm colored by having I haven't
Ivan: seen Joe Biden for 30 plus years.
Ivan: I mean, I just know what the hell I, I knew what the hell I'm getting.
Ivan: There's just so many people that basically probably for the first time ever
Ivan: tuned into that, unfortunately.
Ivan: And, but I also, I also don't think that people are, how do I say?
Ivan: They're, they're not they're not
Ivan: they're not really looking at
Ivan: this from any
Ivan: other perspective other than the tone
Ivan: of their voice i think it was pete that
Ivan: shared this cartoon showing some guy
Ivan: coming up to somebody at the office you know and it's that guy had a nice voice
Ivan: but was lying or whatever and yeah oh that's so great but the this other guy
Ivan: showed up and sounded like like biden oh my god call hr and that's all it is it.
Sam: Comes back to what i was saying before like oftentimes not not certainly in
Sam: debates but just in general it's very rarely about the actual things They say or their policies.
Sam: It's about the feeling they enlisted in the audience.
Ivan: And it just goes back exactly to what we talked about, what the fuck they prepped for.
Ivan: And again, you know, putting all these wonky details in his head didn't really
Ivan: prep him for what the fuck this was going to be.
Sam: And and and and i i started to say this before but i think i got on a tangent
Sam: like we've known donald trump here in the political realm since 2015,
Sam: you know what he's like at debates you know what works you know what doesn't you know that this like,
Sam: What were they thinking?
Ivan: I think they thought I, I, I, I, I, I, again, I go back.
Sam: I think they thought Trump was going to implode himself. And so Joe could stand
Sam: by and watch the implosion.
Ivan: Not, not just that, not, not just that. They thought that this was going to
Ivan: be far more tightly managed than it was. And it wasn't.
Sam: Yeah. Which, which network have they watched ever? Like these debates are always like this.
Sam: And like, you know, people have been complaining about the fact that,
Sam: for instance, that people People have been complaining that there was no fact-checking.
Sam: Donald Trump lied over and over and over and over again, and the moderators said nothing.
Ivan: They didn't challenge him, right?
Sam: Well, and that was one of the written rules. They weren't supposed to.
Sam: CNN management insisted that the reporters not do real-time fact-checking as
Sam: part of how the thing was set up.
Sam: They weren't going to do that. The position was, if somebody's going to fact-check
Sam: him, it needs to be Biden.
Sam: You know but this is this is
Sam: how they always go like the one time a an
Sam: anchor if you remember it was in one of the obama romney
Sam: debates an anchor actually told romney he was wrong about something and like
Sam: it was a big huge shit storm big huge shit shit something shit storm yeah and
Sam: and i i I think she didn't stay at CNN that much longer after that.
Sam: I think it was Candy Crawley, I think.
Sam: And, you know, so no, they, you know, whatever.
Sam: I think, you know, part of the thing was, no, the moderators didn't keep a tight control on it.
Sam: But the moderators almost never keep tight control on these things.
Sam: And Biden didn't stand up for himself.
Ivan: Well, yeah. Yeah, but again, it goes back to what the hell they prep for.
Ivan: It's just, hey, let me be wonky about the details, and it's just,
Ivan: that's just not gonna.
Sam: Well and part of the talk beforehand was how like oh look biden spending all
Sam: this time prepping while donald trump is just like going golfing and talking
Sam: to a few folks on the phone about what do they think that you should say well.
Ivan: Apparently but trump did the right prep look.
Sam: You know yeah uh.
Ivan: You know he was relaxed i mean he was you know he was rested and relaxed I mean,
Ivan: look, one guy who had a horrible debate that I remember,
Ivan: that was a horrible debate for the ages.
Ivan: It was worse than Biden.
Ivan: It was Dan Quayle.
Ivan: Now, he wasn't running for president. It was vice president.
Ivan: But his debate performance was horrible. Okay?
Sam: Even before the Jack Kennedy moment.
Ivan: Even before the Jack Kennedy moment. moment he was he was
Ivan: just absolutely horrific but here is one
Ivan: thing about that the second time that he debated okay
Ivan: he was way better yeah and
Ivan: i recall this he changed completely uh his his his prep and what he was doing
Ivan: because he did almost the exact same thing that that biden did which was focus
Ivan: on all the wonky details of whatever be prepped and have my lines and let I
Ivan: mean, it's not just talk too much and whatnot.
Ivan: And the second time that he had, that he had a debate, he was,
Ivan: he was definitely far more on point.
Ivan: I do think that what the hell do you prepare to do with the debate matters a lot.
Ivan: And, and I have seen candidates fuck up the baits, come back the next time,
Ivan: do way better than they did the first time. Just simply changing their,
Ivan: their style of what they're held are going to do.
Ivan: And I, I, I gotta be honest. I think that a lot of what's going on today is
Ivan: just all based on just a lot of fear of another Trump victory.
Ivan: Now, somebody today did give me perspective and, you know, they,
Ivan: they were talking about why all this fear.
Ivan: Year and you know i was with people from chile
Ivan: argentina different places
Ivan: and you know they said you know the problem is over here with with people they're
Ivan: not used to shit shows we're used to shit shows you know we're used to having
Ivan: you know crazy presidents that did that you know that do all sorts of shit and,
Ivan: And whatnot and whatever. And that the reality is that even,
Ivan: you know, even with getting Trump back, you know, or getting somebody like that
Ivan: back, that we still will figure it out.
Ivan: And that, you know, I mean, look, you see, I'll give an example right now.
Ivan: Look, Brazil, for God's sakes.
Ivan: Look, Brazil right now has as their president a guy that was convicted and in jail.
Ivan: For crimes that he committed during his previous presidency.
Ivan: Okay.
Sam: Yeah.
Ivan: All right. You know, this was the guy on the left, you know,
Ivan: there, that was, there was a massive, massive bribery scheme that ensnared companies
Ivan: and things all over Latin America.
Ivan: Puerto Rico was, was in some of those investigations.
Ivan: They had him on tape, you know, accepting, you know,
Ivan: negotiating and accepting the bribes he was convicted
Ivan: he went to jail he got released okay and
Ivan: he ran for president and he beat this guy who is
Ivan: the guy that loves uh that loves trump bolsonaro okay
Ivan: right and so and i
Ivan: mean bolsonaro himself went and after
Ivan: you know he lost he tried to pull a
Ivan: j6 you know in in brazil too yep
Ivan: and by the way he's under criminal he's under criminal an
Ivan: indictment for that now too right of all fucking
Ivan: things and so what they were saying is that yeah you
Ivan: know i know you know we've been so used
Ivan: to things running well well comparatively i guess comparatively comparatively
Ivan: sam yeah yeah we have been so used to that that they're all like you guys you
Ivan: know you just you guys just you know not used to this shit you know we lived
Ivan: this their entire fucking lives.
Ivan: And so they were taking it in stride, you know, just, you know,
Ivan: even the fact that Trump might, might, might come back.
Ivan: I, I, I'm just like, I don't know if I want to, I don't know if I'm there yet,
Ivan: but I, I, I'm like, you know, but also I was thinking from the perspective,
Ivan: you know, even Germany, you know, came back from having Hitler.
Sam: Took a little while, but yeah. And a big war, but yeah.
Ivan: Yeah. But they did. I mean, you know.
Sam: So not that that's the kind of future I'm hoping for here.
Ivan: No, but, but, but, but I'm just, you know, I think we got to be prepared for whatever the hell it is.
Ivan: And I'm like, I don't, I don't think that I, I, one thing that this is definitely true.
Ivan: That I'm definitely certain of is that making any decision like this,
Ivan: just purely based on fear, which is what a lot of people are doing with all
Ivan: these op-eds, is a really bad way of making decisions.
Sam: Right. Yes.
Ivan: And I have never seen it to be a proper way of making decisions.
Ivan: And that I think is the one thing maybe that is really driving me crazy with people.
Ivan: Thing because it's just you never make
Ivan: good decisions just purely based on
Ivan: just just you know where your fear is
Ivan: the one that's in the driver's seat i mean objectively you
Ivan: look at this and you've got about
Ivan: what the hell is the best
Ivan: way to try to win you
Ivan: can't right now go and And draw me a different fucking scenario where Biden
Ivan: is not president and tell me
Ivan: that any of those is going to be any better than having Biden go and run.
Ivan: Just I mean, I don't know. Or maybe I'm missing one. You want to tell me which
Ivan: one you think has a higher likelihood?
Sam: Well, no, no, I, I, I think I'm with you, but I think the what people are thinking is like, look.
Sam: Look, we've been looking at polls showing Biden behind for like forever.
Sam: And right now they're sort of tied. But they're feeling really insecure about that.
Sam: And they look at his performance and basically say, we're screwed if we stick with him.
Sam: So might as well gamble with somebody else because we'll definitely lose with
Sam: Biden. That's what people are thinking.
Ivan: It, even though all the data is showing you that that's not,
Ivan: that that's, you know, that that's not, that's a, you see, all of those are all fear-based.
Ivan: I, I, I, because the data is not showing you that.
Ivan: Yeah, that, you know, that that the races, you know, were screwed, you know, that I mean.
Sam: It is clear like Biden's been behind. That's not false.
Ivan: I mean, it, you know.
Sam: But but at the same time, you everything you say about the incumbent advantage
Sam: is true. Everything people have been saying about how Democrats have been overperforming is true.
Sam: Everything that people have been saying about the salience of the abortion issue is true.
Sam: Now, of course, there are people on the other side scared about immigration,
Sam: but there are a lot of reasons to not think it's hopeless.
Sam: But there are reasons to be concerned too for sure but i'm not sure the well.
Ivan: There are reasons to be concerned i'm saying i'm not saying that i'm.
Sam: Not sure the right way to respond to that is like oh well let's let's let's
Sam: pick some random person and hope that they magically do better.
Ivan: Exactly i mean hey you know oh i'm concerned that this house might not might
Ivan: not sustain the hurricane well let me torch it and let me try to build a new
Ivan: one with the hurricane arriving in two weeks.
Ivan: How about that? I mean, because that's basically what they're saying.
Sam: Yeah.
Ivan: I'm like, no, you gotta listen. You, you batten the hatches,
Ivan: you do what you can, you know, Hey, the data shows that more than likely you're going to be okay.
Ivan: You know, but damn it. You know, you know, the other alternative is stupid.
Ivan: Now I just don't, I just, I just, you know, yeah.
Sam: I mean, And look, look, if there was a time to switch horses,
Sam: it was more than a year ago.
Ivan: Yes, exactly. It wasn't now. Yeah. It's not now.
Sam: No. And again, the only way that it could happen is this point is if Biden initiates
Sam: it. If Biden says, you know, you guys are right. I'm out.
Sam: And then we would have to deal with that scenario. And that would be messy. Like, you know, it.
Ivan: Would be super messy.
Sam: You know, like, because on the one hand.
Ivan: Because I don't know if you told me like right now, OK, Biden's not running.
Ivan: Who is next up? Honestly, who's next up should be Kamala.
Sam: It should be.
Ivan: Yes, but it should be. But I don't think a lot of these people with a scenario,
Ivan: I don't think have that in mind.
Ivan: They think that we should just, you know, pluck Ozio.
Ivan: We're going to bring in Ozio.
Ivan: That's it. Ozio. yeah no anybody that any of you don't know the reference from
Ivan: the book primary colors where they are using as Cuomo,
Ivan: You know, that was the name that they gave him on the book because they changed all the names.
Ivan: And the reality is this was during a campaign where Clinton was the front runner.
Ivan: He had a whole bunch of scandals and shit going on and they wanted to bring
Ivan: in the savior and the savior was going to be Cuomo.
Sam: Right.
Ivan: Same fucking bullshit. I'm thinking about it.
Ivan: Jennifer Flowers, horse shit. Not that it was horse shit.
Sam: Yeah. Yeah, but you know.
Ivan: There were scandals, there was, there's bad speeches, bad debates, bad everything.
Ivan: You know, you had the third party guy, the only, the only thing changing really,
Ivan: you know, the couple of things for you is that, that Bill Clinton was young.
Sam: Not old, and he played the saxophone on Arsenio Hall.
Ivan: Right. And that HW Bush was a psychopath.
Sam: Yeah.
Ivan: So those two factors, you know, but, but they were screaming for the savior.
Ivan: I mean, it's the same fucking, it's the same fucking screams.
Sam: It is. And you know, we always said this year was going to be a wild ride and here we are.
Ivan: Fuck. But I don't know. So we'll see.
Sam: Like, like you said, we got sentencing coming up, coming up soon.
Sam: And then like a couple of days after that, we've got the Republican national convention.
Sam: So yeah, things are, things are happening. It's, it's in the,
Sam: it's getting in the swing of it. And yeah.
Sam: And we, and we have the Supreme court case on Monday, like probably unless they
Sam: punt it to next year or this summer or fall or something, which they could do theoretically. Right.
Sam: But everybody seems to think it's coming Monday on the presidential immunity case.
Sam: And just to get my predictions out before we take a break and do something else, I don't know what else.
Sam: But my prediction has remained the same. time,
Sam: I predicted they were going to release it on the very last day of the term possible
Sam: and that they will do the thing where they define what's immune and what's not,
Sam: but send it back to the lower court in order to determine what does or does
Sam: not meet that rule in this particular case.
Sam: And by doing so, they build in additional delay and additional chances for appeal.
Sam: Appeal and you know because the only scenario that
Sam: gets you to a trial even starting before the election is if absolutely everything
Sam: went in a perfect way and that's not going to happen so okay that's my prediction
Sam: we'll we'll find out on monday i guess so.
Ivan: Anything else so we got okay.
Sam: Well let's take a break and then if you got another topic you think of in the
Sam: meantime we can we can do that otherwise we can like just make noises for another
Sam: 15 minutes and then say goodbye.
Ivan: Okay all right.
Sam: I mean that's some people would
Sam: say that's what the show is anyway we're just making random noises ah.
Ivan: Okay all right well i could i could give it a try.
Sam: And speaking of random noises it's time for this random noise,
Sam: I actually hit the wrong button. It was supposed to be a different one,
Sam: but it still fit. It was fine.
Ivan: Well, I mean, that was, I mean, that was, that sounds like sounded accurate.
Ivan: I mean, you know, based on what you said, you know.
Sam: Yeah, I know. There were a couple of them that would have met that description, but anyway.
Sam: So Yvonne, anything else you want to talk about? Or should we just like read
Sam: the stuff at the end of the show and be done?
Ivan: I mean, I don't know. is there anything else that happened this week that that merits we.
Sam: Had a bunch of scotus decisions not the immunity one but we had.
Ivan: Uh you you know that there's something else that people are just there's something
Ivan: else that people are despondent about you want to talk about you want to you
Ivan: want to mention anything about we.
Sam: Had julian assange.
Ivan: Oh julian assange yes he's back in australia he went to you know i did not realize
Ivan: that there was a federal courthouse in saipan.
Sam: Now now you know for when you're indicted.
Ivan: Oh great so i can go and like you know
Ivan: travel to saipan for my my my arraignment yeah exactly
Ivan: you know i i i came up with an idea i i i i you know i i don't know if i could
Ivan: play this out loud but but i i i i could i i could do i i one time sam Sam got
Ivan: really angry at me because we had an extra hour on, on the radio at, at,
Ivan: at, at, at WRCT.
Sam: Come on Eileen.
Ivan: No, it wasn't. Come on Eileen.
Sam: No, that was another time. Somebody else did that to me then.
Ivan: That. Yeah, no, I, I started playing on repeat the 2001 space odyssey,
Ivan: the, the, the, the, the theme song from the beginning.
Ivan: And I kept, I kept playing it over and over.
Sam: Which by the way, is the next movie i have to talk about.
Ivan: Oh oh oh look apropos but i i can't i can't i don't think i can i don't think
Ivan: right now is where we're we're podcasting i can't play it out loud so oh well yeah.
Sam: Maybe i'll add it in post.
Ivan: There you go you can go and like close out the show with with with that you
Ivan: know uh that has uh true so so.
Sam: Scotus wise we had the the big one was the chevron one one, right?
Sam: That's the, like, there were a few others, but like they, they all,
Sam: they also did things like rule
Sam: that laws saying that the homeless couldn't sleep in public were fine.
Sam: Uh, things like that. But, uh, the big one was they call Chevron,
Sam: I guess it was a 1980s Supreme court decision.
Sam: But basically the, the point of it was that courts should defer to experts at agencies about.
Sam: Regulations and policies when the law was vague.
Sam: And this is important because I'm sure it's a big surprise to people.
Sam: Laws are often vague, especially when it comes to enabling legislation for agencies.
Sam: They basically say, I mean, I'm oversimplifying, but basically say, oh, you want an EPA?
Sam: Okay. The Environmental Protection Agency is going to now exist and they will
Sam: have the authority to make regulations related to the environment without Congress
Sam: having to explicitly call out the details of all those regulations.
Sam: Again, oversimplification, but basically what the previous rule was,
Sam: as long as the agency made a reasonable interpretation of the law,
Sam: then the courts would defer to that.
Sam: Basically, the ruling today says, nope, it's interpretation of the law that's
Sam: up to the courts, not to the agencies.
Sam: And so no deference, we will decide.
Sam: If there's a question about what was or was not authorized by some law,
Sam: which look, the courts have always been involved in that in cases that were egregious.
Sam: Basically, this just said, as long as the agency's interpretation was reasonable,
Sam: the court would defer to it they would only overturn things.
Ivan: I think but but one of one of the
Ivan: issues with this and there was a a ruling the day before related to agencies
Ivan: that had in-house you know basically processes that that wouldn't that were
Ivan: like uh that that were outside of the
Ivan: court system i mean there was because you know because many agencies had like
Ivan: the irs for example had an in-house tribunals okay that that did not rely on the on the court system,
Ivan: and i know that a lot of people found those unfair and that they were really
Ivan: slanted in favor of the agency and so that was a challenge and they overturned
Ivan: that and said they got to go to of court.
Ivan: So one problem with, I think, with both of these rulings, not talking more from
Ivan: a practical sense, is that the federal court system is already for a long time been overburdened.
Ivan: And cases take a long, long time. If you guys haven't noticed,
Ivan: like, why the hell do you guys think that these Trump cases are taking so damn
Ivan: long? And the federal ones specifically.
Ivan: And so all of a sudden, those two rulings make it that a lot of things that
Ivan: were being handled in a different way or that did not have to come to the court
Ivan: all of a sudden have to come to the court.
Ivan: Yeah. And I think that has some really serious practical implications for the federal court system.
Sam: Well, it has implications for the court system. It also has implications to
Sam: what agencies can do in the first place.
Ivan: Yeah.
Sam: The bottom line is if you say you can only do something if Congress specifies
Sam: it in detail, Congress is not good at that.
Ivan: Well, the thing about it is that I think that it's not that they can't define it.
Ivan: The problem is that before, the courts were deferring to their interpretation.
Sam: Right.
Ivan: But now it's like they can define something, but it could be far more easily challenged in court.
Ivan: And so that's why I'm thinking that this brings a hell of a lot more litigation
Ivan: period for practically because,
Ivan: hell, you know, it used to be that it was far more difficult to to sue related
Ivan: to any of these. And now it makes it a hell of a lot easier.
Sam: Right.
Ivan: So.
Ivan: It is a bonanza for lawyers. Tell you what, Jesus, they're going to be able to rack up fees.
Sam: I mean, the whole thing about this is it ties into like Steve Bannon's old deconstruction
Sam: of the administrative state.
Sam: A bunch of these rulings have the effect of making it much harder for government to effectively work.
Sam: You know, and you can say like, you know, Congress should have to pass a law
Sam: in order to do this or whatever.
Sam: But realistically, this makes it much harder for government to do stuff.
Sam: Now, if you are one of those who just outright thinks that, you know,
Sam: government shouldn't be doing anything anyway, then this is all great news for you.
Sam: If, on the other hand, you think that, yeah, you know, having a government who's
Sam: able to effectively regulate certain things actually is helpful,
Sam: then this is potentially kneecapping the abilities of what can be done for potentially
Sam: decades until like the court changes laws change etc which you know is not a fast process yeah.
Ivan: Not it's not going to be a fast process so i i do think that and.
Sam: I think you're right in the short term all kinds of things are going to end
Sam: up in court and yeah you know when we're talking all right like i mean i know
Sam: criminal versus civil versus whatever, but the, all of them are super slow.
Ivan: Yeah. All of them.
Sam: I mean, we're, we're talking about how long the, the Donald Trump stuff has
Sam: been hanging on, but some of the, the court cases and the corporate court cases are also go on.
Sam: Like there was a news, I forget which, which company it was,
Sam: but there was something about them proceeding on a case that had been going
Sam: for like well over a decade coming up on 20 years.
Sam: Now it's been going back and forth in court. And.
Sam: To me, this is ridiculous. It's already too slow. We should be figuring out
Sam: ways to speed it up and come to a conclusion faster.
Sam: This is just going to clog everything up even more.
Ivan: More money for the courts.
Sam: Yeah, like anybody's going to give them money. Come on.
Ivan: No, probably not.
Sam: Well, the government's not going to pay them through our taxes,
Sam: but plenty of people are apparently giving lots of judges money,
Sam: especially Justice Thomas. us but you know.
Ivan: Well especially says did i not understand like the where the hell did i see
Ivan: this interpretation of also uh was this a scotus case the one where they uh oh.
Sam: The bribery one yeah.
Ivan: Yeah the bribery one where wait a
Ivan: minute yeah where i'm sorry but apparently but my understanding was that this
Ivan: definitely was a mistake in the federal law because i saw that state law that
Ivan: The states that have these anti-bribery laws are far more explicit about this.
Ivan: Okay. But apparently the federal, the way that the federal one is written,
Ivan: it basically allows you to just go and say, Hey, here official.
Ivan: Oh, here's 20,000.
Ivan: I'm like, Oh, it's just a gift. Thank you.
Ivan: Oh, there's no print quote book. Oh, here you go. Here it's just, you know.
Sam: Well a part a part of it was also apparently like if there's no agreement beforehand
Sam: you can give them a thank you for doing the thing that you wanted thank you
Sam: right yeah so thank thank you very much for passing that law that helps me you know here's here's.
Ivan: A hundred thousand dollars.
Sam: Yeah so it makes you wonder like you know what the fuck that well I was gonna
Sam: say how bad it this is Menendez that he like gets caught with gold in his house
Sam: and like is on trial for this when apparently all this should be legal.
Ivan: Basically I'm just you know I don't so I this is giving me a headache.
Sam: Okay are we done Yvonne.
Ivan: This actually is giving me more of a more of a headache than i mean thinking
Ivan: about some of the implications of these cases than anything else i i mean i
Ivan: i just but the one thing is that on the on the payments one it should be an
Ivan: easy fix but congress i mean you know i know the fucking,
Ivan: republicans are not going to vote for making that illegal.
Sam: No no fucking way a lot of democrats won't either to be honest like this is
Sam: part of the problem with anti-corruption legislation in general is that like
Sam: there's a non-trivial number of people on both sides who are taking advantage every way they can but.
Ivan: We you know at some point we passed a law against this.
Sam: We did there were laws at
Sam: various times in the past they've been weakened over
Sam: time like every once in a while you get
Sam: a moment usually after some sort of scandal
Sam: where congress is embarrassed enough to pass some
Sam: laws against the stuff that caused the scandal but in
Sam: between they're like you know nobody say
Sam: anything because we're having fun with whatever we're
Sam: getting right now you know like one one of the examples is just the stock trading
Sam: oh god where we're like yeah congress congress can there are no restrictions
Sam: on congress trading stocks on information that That they have through their official duties.
Ivan: Right.
Sam: And they have to disclose them. Like months later. But they're not prohibited from doing anything.
Sam: And. And so like a bunch of congress critters. Have made a lot of good money.
Sam: Based on information that.
Sam: The general public was not aware of. Like there's actually some guy.
Sam: Who set up a fund. That basically just tracks.
Sam: Congressional investments. And does the same thing.
Ivan: How is it doing?
Sam: Apparently pretty well.
Sam: You know, there's a little bit of a delay because he has to wait till the reporting
Sam: happens. But yeah, right. Anyway.
Sam: Let's wrap this sucker up. I got to get back to the stupid election graph stuff.
Sam: It's given me a headache and I'm tired and I'm hungry.
Sam: So anyway, the usual stuff at the end of the show election. No,
Sam: not election graphs. Don't go to election graphs right now. It's all broken.
Sam: Maybe it'll be fixed by the time I put out the podcast. But at the moment,
Sam: it's all freaking broken.
Sam: Can anyway no go to curmudgeon-quarter.com and
Sam: you'll find our transcripts and
Sam: by the way i still haven't like figured out the trick to make apple like my
Sam: manually created transcripts it's it's worked once for me and hasn't worked
Sam: the rest of i don't know it says it doesn't like them it rejects them says i'm
Sam: not following their guidelines but it doesn't tell me what I'm doing wrong. So I can't fix it.
Ivan: Ah, it's always helpful.
Sam: Yeah. So anyway, it's got transcripts.
Sam: Sometimes it's, we got archives. You can go back to listen to old shows.
Sam: It's got all the ways to contact us. And of course it's got a link to our Patreon
Sam: where you can give us money at various levels.
Sam: We'll mention you on the show. We'll send you a postcard. We'll send you a mug,
Sam: all of that sort of fun stuff.
Sam: And at $2 a month or more, we'll invite you to our Slack where Yvonne and I
Sam: and a bunch of listeners chat throughout the week about the goings on.
Sam: Obviously this week we talked a lot about the debate, but any other thing you
Sam: want to highlight from the Slack this week, Yvonne?
Ivan: Well, I guess continuing on the theme of,
Ivan: sociopathic things that Donald Trump talks about,
Ivan: Donald Trump proposes migrant fight league during bonkers rallies oh yes okay
Ivan: so apparently he wanted to propose some kind of you know you,
Ivan: know gladiator style fighting between you know i guess migrants because they're
Ivan: like you know i mean i'm sure that he thought about it from the style of the
Ivan: movie gladiator did you see that movie.
Sam: No.
Ivan: Well, gladiator.
Sam: I know what a gladiator is.
Ivan: Well, it's like, uh, you know, gladiator.
Sam: There used to be a game show on TV. I didn't watch that either.
Ivan: I didn't watch that, but, but you know, so he wants them to fight,
Ivan: you know, kind of like Roman empire style over at the Coliseum kind.
Sam: Of a thing. Yes.
Ivan: Basically.
Sam: Yep. Yep.
Ivan: It fits entirely yeah and of course we're worried about biden like not not not being articulate.
Sam: Oh yeah and a rumor has uh donald trump may announce his vp any day now as well.
Ivan: You know i've been hearing that already for weeks and i just you know well.
Sam: The specific rumor was it was it if he did badly at the debate he would change
Sam: the news cycle by announcing his vp right away.
Ivan: But he.
Sam: Doesn't need to do that so he may he may wait to pull it out around the time of his sentencing.
Ivan: Well another thing is andy borowitz with you
Ivan: know at least with some comedy relief went and
Ivan: posted one there are some you know so we're talking about replacing
Ivan: a joe uh you mentioned uh hey there are some compelling arguments for replacing
Ivan: joe with hunter you could still use biden 24 campaign regalia he's a generation
Ivan: younger and the fact that he's a convicted felon could attract republican voters there.
Sam: You go yeah that's that's that's perfect.
Ivan: So why not yeah i mean you guys want to replace it but you know what the hell
Ivan: why don't we go toe-to-toe with the republicans hey let's put our convicted
Ivan: felon versus your convicted fellow what do you think of that i.
Sam: I just i just don't know what to say it's yeah i.
Ivan: Mean you know and you know
Ivan: look you know unfortunately hunter has a substance abuse problem i'm sure that
Ivan: you know what if he's going to go on the debate stage i'm sure he'll take a
Ivan: hit of coke or something or whatever before he goes on there to make sure that
Ivan: he's he's all energetic yeah.
Sam: Like we said last week, they should have drugged up Biden. Come on.
Ivan: Well, he was sick, so it probably was the perfect moment to drug him up.
Sam: They probably gave him things that made him sleepy. I don't know.
Ivan: Might have, yeah.
Sam: So, ah, well. Oh, well.
Sam: And so just hopefully we'll see energetic, vibrant Biden a lot more over the
Sam: next couple weeks So he can sort of turn this thing around.
Sam: Otherwise, like it's just an easy spiral thing anyway, but I don't think he's dropping out.
Ivan: I don't think he's dropping out. I also, you know, look, if like,
Ivan: like I said, my, my, my thing is,
Ivan: I don't know, the narrative and the, and these, and these cycles changes so
Ivan: quickly that, you know, in two weeks from now, we're going to be talking about the sentencing.
Ivan: I mean think about what if what if trump gets sentenced to jail which i think is very likely it.
Sam: Could happen now now there might there might be a sentence to jail pending blah
Sam: blah blah so it's like there'll still be appeals they'll still be right.
Ivan: No no no i get that i get that but but still so.
Sam: He's not actually going to jail most likely.
Ivan: Most likely not most likely but but but But what if he gets sent to jail?
Ivan: How does that play into all this narrative?
Sam: It'll be interesting to see. That's all I got to say.
Ivan: Yes. Oh, God.
Sam: Okay, we're done. We're done.
Ivan: By the way, by then, you know, I will say one final thought on all of this.
Sam: Yeah, one final thought.
Ivan: You know, one problem that we have over here is that we, you know,
Ivan: which may be, we haven't hit rock bottom with this entire cycle with Trump.
Ivan: No, Sarah, here's the thing. Look, look at what's happening in the British election
Ivan: with the conservatives and how they wrote all these morons. Yeah.
Ivan: Until basically just complete disaster. Okay.
Sam: But yeah, that's next week too, right? We'll, we'll have, we'll,
Sam: we'll, we'll have results of that by the time we record our next show, probably.
Ivan: And by the time we that, and all the forecasts show that the wipeout,
Ivan: the kind of wipeout that we would hope the Republicans get at some point,
Ivan: but haven't yet at some point. is what they are getting there, finally.
Sam: At least that's what it looks like today. We'll know for sure in a week.
Ivan: We'll know for sure, but it's highly likely that they are going to get completely
Ivan: crushed in an epic fashion, like no...
Ivan: Government or you know whatever or party of you
Ivan: know party like conservatives has gotten crushed ever and it's
Ivan: all a product of all this bullshit and all these games and all this same usual
Ivan: right wing cozying up to bullshit that that's that the republicans have been
Ivan: doing and and amping up with with with trump so plus brexit plus brexit you
Ivan: know at that and that and that's their waterloo I mean, basically,
Ivan: I mean, it drove him to, you know, a policy that is basically just,
Ivan: you know, undermine the British economy for decades to come.
Ivan: So I don't know. Is that what it's going to take for the fever to break? I hope not.
Sam: But yeah, it might.
Ivan: It might.
Sam: Like, yeah. As the election approaches, I know how much you hate the topic,
Sam: but we will undoubtedly have what happens if Trump wins conversations.
Sam: So, yeah. But not today. I am done.
Ivan: Not today. I'm done.
Sam: Okay, everybody. The usual. Stay safe. Have fun. We will see you next week.
Sam: And yeah, hopefully I'll fix my stupid website. Back up. No,
Sam: not back after this. I'm done.
Sam: Here's the outro. Goodbye. Say goodbye, Vaughn.
Ivan: Talk about the senile guy. Goodbye.
Sam: Okay any stop good night everyone.